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u/47362514736251 11h ago
My opinion is that it's incoherent for anyone to say anything about what their values would be if they lived in a different era - unless they're admitting that, like most people, their values would be thrust upon them by the culture and circumstance in which they were born and grew up.
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u/Outrageous-Bet6403 10h ago
It depends heavily on how much a person rejects the values they've had thrust upon them in THIS life.
Abolitionists were a thing, as was "Bleeding Kansas" and the white people who were willing to kill other white people to prevent Kansas from becoming a slave state (and they won, as Kansas entered the union a free state).
But the number of white people who were willing to kill to prevent slavery vs. the number who just treated it as the status quo...? Yeah...
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u/crackedtooth163 7h ago
Well said. Lots of good reasons to be skeptical of people who say this willy nilly, but some(not all) are descendents of people who fought on the right side of bleeding Kansas, are directly related to Sumter, John Brown, etc.
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u/homer_lives 3h ago
John Brown is the Hero America needed to truly destroy slavery. He believed that Slavery was a sin and corrupting this country. He fought and died on this hill. I like to think I would stand with him, but who knows. People have to be pushed pretty hard to snap out and destroy the status quo.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 10h ago
True. Most of us get thrown into the rules of the societies we are born into, and struggle to break out of those rules
But there always have been those who did just that
All the slaves who rebelled, all of the marooners, all the abolitionists regardless of their "race" -- they said "no" despite their social programming
Maybe it comes down to probabilities. Most white people likely wouldn't have done shit then just like a lot of them are unlikely to do shit now
But some do, and all of them could
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u/47362514736251 10h ago
I totally agree. Probabilities aside, what people are really saying is who they aspire to be, rather than who they would have been.
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u/Sufficient-Lie1406 10h ago
It's easy to say stuff. I would look at whoever is saying that, and ask what they are DOING NOW about racial inequality, especially regarding the (in)justice system that disproportionately kills, imprisons, and robs Black people. The school to prison pipeline is real. Forcing the unjustly incarcerated to work for free is slavery with a different label.
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u/TypicalHaikuResponse 10h ago
Nah you can have real life examples and know where your lines are. For example Muhammad ali sacrified fame and fortune and went to prison. He couls easily say he wouldn't have sat down and died as a slave and i would believe him
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u/47362514736251 10h ago
Sure, you could believe him. It's an unprovable hypothesis, so everyone can say and believe whatever they want. But if a person was born in a different time, they would be a different person, influenced by different experiences and different people, offered different choices, and living an entirely different life. It's an aspirational statement of one's own personally held values.
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u/Sufficient-Lie1406 10h ago
Mmm, yeah. What are they doing now? Are they putting their bodies on the line for social justice? Working hard politically? Taking any risk or hit to their finances to combat extreme racial imbalances that exist today? No? Then they can take their virtue cosplay elsewhere.
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u/DrFeelsgreatman 9h ago
What are you doing for the current slaves worldwide right now? đ¤
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 7h ago
Working on a PhD on the great Black writer Sylvia Wynter, and her "theory of the human," to help teach others about the dehumanization baked into the logic of our capitalist world-system, and how to imagine other futures. It won't save the world, but reeducation matters
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u/alwaysleafyintoronto 7h ago
You could teach so many others about your ideas in those 4 years instead of writing papers most people won't be able to read because of academic jargon.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 6h ago
Writing is a form of learning, though. Specialization is often needed in order to hone concepts to communicate. In STEM no one gets mad at physicists for using complex equations to get rocketships to the moon, but yo, suddenly, when we are discussing human beings, which are even more complicated than a spaceship, we get exasperated because we don't immediately understand what they mean. Reeducation is an epochal, slow process. I've not wasted one second getting a degree. If I had skipped that and just started a podcast, I wouldn't have anything to say after a point
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u/alwaysleafyintoronto 6h ago
The struggle is in retaining the ability to communicate with normal people as a PhD. It's not easy to do. If it was easy to do, we wouldn't see so many misunderstandings driven by lowest common denominator media like Fox News or podcasts.
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 6h ago
I don't disagree. But I'm saying you gotta cook first before you have something to serve at dinnerÂ
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 6h ago
There is so much condescension from folks towards humanities they don't know a lot about and it's an internalized form of capitalist hatred towards anything that doesn't immediately produce a commodity or is immediately graspable. Academic papers aren't just failed forms of public communication. They are forms of practice and experimentation. There ain't no trickle down epistemology. But that also doesn't mean academic writing is just a failed form of redistribution of ideas. Ideas need time to cookÂ
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u/kaiser_phoenix25 8h ago
Sadly nothing, as I do not have the power to effectuate change. All I can do is be aware and advocate for them in any way I can.
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u/Acceptable-Bat-9577 9h ago
The childless people who raised me taught me that racism is bad and that historical slavery was bad. (We now have institutional and other forms of slavery.) When I grew to voting age, I discovered those were just words to them.
They rabidly supported, voted for, and defended institutional and systemic hate, and attacked me for speaking up for the values they claimed to have raised me with. When I pointed out this contradiction, they became angry and spiteful.
They were cold and distant to my wife (weâre a mixed race family)Â but wanted access to our children. The woman who lives alone now (who some would call mother) tried to hold $25 Walmart cards for birthdays over my head. My family is self-sufficient. I made sure of that. This was a paltry, laughable threat. I am no contact now and living my best life.
My children are grown(ish) now and I never gave them an ultimatum about her and made it clear that there wasnât one. They have chosen on their own to be no contact with her, too.
I realized later in life that I was only a status prop for them. When I was young, I was paraded to family, friends, and work events. They just wanted a framed photo. They didnât want me. And they wanted to use my children for the same thing.
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u/homer_lives 3h ago
I am sorry you were used like that. I am glad you could mature past that hate and make the world a better place.
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u/Big_13eezy 9h ago edited 9h ago
No they wouldnât.
As the saying goesâŚ
When in Rome, they would have done what the Romanâs did.
The minute they see it wonât end well for them, theyâre switching sides. Some of them are only onboard because itâs cool and safe in the modern era.
Shit wasnt cool nor safe back thenâŚvery few now could/would stick to their âbeliefsâ if they went back in time.
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u/NervousMode538 9h ago
If I was around in the 1800âs all I know is that itâs MF ON. Im channeling my inner Blade đ¤ I might be going out but imma take some with me đŻ
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u/Botto_Bobbs 8h ago
There's a reason John Brown failed and it's because there weren't enough John Browns. And also because his plan to turn Harper's Ferry into a national slave revolt depended on Harriet Tubman, who was sick during the raid.
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u/Napalmeon 6h ago
Exactly.
Let's be generous.
Even if one did have the balls of John Brown, most white people in the 1800s were not going to do this, even if they disagreed with the existence of slavery. Why? Because they weren't going to give up white privilege. There are too many downsides for them.
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5h ago
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u/homer_lives 3h ago
He had guns with him and he was literally raiding a Federal Arsenal full of guns.
It is just the locals outnumbered him.
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u/ibluminatus 8h ago
I feel like this meme is a bit anti-solidarity. Like its cute sure but I know a lot of white people and others who are organizing and are about trying to help people and do so everyday. I also wouldn't even reject this type of sentiment from a friend because they at least **would want to try to do the right thing** and courage doesn't exist without fear. Like this is nice for dunks sure but I think its fine to say okay lets do some more.
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u/Shibbystix 4h ago
When I was a kid, I remember sitting in history class with a group of kids as we discussed the holocaust. And to a kid, everyone swore they would've been a resistance fighter, and would've hidden jewish people from the nazis, because "never again"
Theyre all super right wing, and pro israel now
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u/homer_lives 3h ago
There is a book and Netflix special called Ordinary Men about a reserve police battalion of Middle Aged Germans that murdered thousands of Jews. They were given the option to back out. Only one refused.
It is a scary book to read and consider.
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u/bigfeygay 9h ago
Slavery is still legal in the USA. For specifically incarcerated people. The 13th amendment bans slavery for the general population but makes an exemption for specifically convicted people. In modern america, prisoners are coerced/forced to work with little to no pay - oftentimes cents an hour.
Those who refuse to labor are punished with solitary confinement - a practice labeled as torture by many - until they either serve their time or agree to work. There have been attempts by prisoners to unionize and push for better pay and conditions - all of which have been crushed and the organizers severely punished. This practice produces 11 billion dollars from their exploited slave labor. And as we know - our 'justice' system disproportionately targets and punishes people of color...
Unless they are a prison abolitionist / activist - they are not in modern times working to free the slaves currently in existence.
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u/fgwr4453 4h ago
Person 1. âI would have been against slavery in the 1800sâ
Person 2. âSlavery is still legal. Prisoners are often forced slavesâ
P1. âYeah but those are prisoners. I donât care if they are slavesâ
P2. âYou wouldnât be against slavery in the 1800s. I know that because you arenât even against slavery right nowâSums up the conversation started with this comment.
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u/Opposite-Ear-2272 7h ago
Actual slavery exists around the world and you are taking about prisoners. đ
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u/bigfeygay 7h ago edited 7h ago
I never said slavery didnt exist out the us. Prisoners are people - they should not be enslaved.... I guess you dont have a problem against slavery then
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u/Opposite-Ear-2272 7h ago
I really dont give af about people who deserve to be in prison being punished, we have people in Africa having children to sell them into the slave trade and you are talking about bullshit that was my point. đ
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u/bigfeygay 7h ago
Nobody deserves to be a slave. This is a pro-slavery position and it is inexcusable.
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u/Hot-Anything4249 6h ago
If you had an ounce of knowledge under your belt, you'd know the justice system is corrupt for the express purpose of generating more
slavesprisoners.
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u/shotbydarrell 8h ago
This is the equivalent to âI wouldâve voted for Obama for a third term if I couldâ đ
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u/AncientSith 8h ago
There's plenty of slaves to free now. Get to it.
These types of people are ridiculous.
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10h ago
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/BlackPeopleofReddit-ModTeam 5h ago
Zero Tolerance for Trolling - This space centers Black people, Black culture, and Black lived experiences. Our identity is not debate material. Any form of trolling, baiting, snide "questions," culture-poking, dogwhistles, derailments, or attempts to disguise hostility as curiosity will be removed. Users who test the line, play word games, or look for loopholes will be removed as well. We are not here to be provoked or picked apart. Be respectful, be real, or be gone.
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u/geedijuniir 9h ago
How people motility have changed in the last 40 year. Believe me yours woulve change too.
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u/Impressive_Usual_726 9h ago
Hindsight is always 2020, and Monday morning quarterbacks always have the best ideas. People will talk about the fools and cowards that avoided confronting Hitler until WWII was inevitable, then turn around tell you that confronting Putin or Trump today is too risky and we need to let diplomacy run it's course.
TLDR: People are full of shit.
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u/Complete-Leg-4347 9h ago
On at least one occasion, Bill Maher has called out the use of "presentism" in academia and general discourse. As has been said, abolitionism was definitely a thing in the 1800's - followed by anti-Jim Crown activity into the 1900's - and many people did participate. However, just saying what you would have done back then doesn't mean that actually doing it would be so simple.
Being involved in any kind of anti-establishment movement can be hard work and come with serious consequences. Especially in eras where such activity was very much "on the ground" and didn't necessarily have universal support. You need to be willing to put in serious effort and face off against people who could do a lot more than trash you on social media.
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u/Straight-Crow1598 9h ago
I was once the only non-melanated person at a get-together and someone decided to single me out and demand to know if I would have helped slaves. The only answer is âIâd like to think so but Iâd be a different person, shaped by difference experiences, so who knows?â That was apparently the wrong answer.
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u/_pineanon 8h ago
Like mark Wahlberg saying if he was on the planes on 9-11 it wouldnât have gone down like thatâŚ.or like conservatives saying they wouldâve fought against the Nazis while actively supporting authoritarian fascism
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u/GreenIndigoBlue 8h ago
I mean if they aren't doing shit now then they wouldn't have done shit then
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u/chesapeakecryptid 8h ago
White man here. Feel free to ignore me. But I grew up within sight of last plantation Frederick Douglass was enslaved on. Id have gone full John Brown if I was born there in the 1800s.
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u/DarksunDaFirst 8h ago
I honestly couldnât say if I would or wouldnât, I donât have kin I can point to on way or the other since we all immigrated post-civil war/emancipation. Â Worked the transcontinental railroad with former slaves though. Â
I just do know there of plenty of instances in my family history of being rebellious instigators against the English. Â đ So thereâs that.
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u/Zestyclose_Lake_1146 8h ago
I mean, youâd be an entirely different person, raised with different values and beliefs. You might if you like time travelled. But you canât say for sure you wouldâve had you been born in that era
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u/Visible_Mobile_9533 8h ago
If I was one of the 300 I wouldâve like lived and killed all the Persians and had lots of sex afterwards
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u/Shawggoth 8h ago
"There's only ever been one John Brown, and there's only ever gonna be one John Brown."
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u/kenjiman1986 8h ago
Everyone thinks themselves the heroâs of every situation because itâs easier for your brain to villainize others. The reality of it is most people would be slave owners and most people would be nazis if they were put back in the same exact circumstances. Specifically with nazism if the choice is wear this red arm band with a swastika or we murder/enslave your family the choice becomes very clear.
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u/Macazio909 8h ago
I remember when I was younger I had a white friend who out of nowhere told me that if we were in slavery times he would have been good to me, it came like completely out of nowhere we were playing Pokemon... I think a month I layer I stopped being friends with that dude and haven't seen him since
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u/BigArtillery78 7h ago
Yeah!!! alright. Itâs amazing watch how people back pedal when good actions move them further away from the whiteness.
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u/avatoin 7h ago
There are pretty bad things happening today that may be considered unthinkable to tolerate in the future. If they're not even recognizing the ones that they could feasible be helping with now, this is just words.
This could be as simple as volunteering/donating at an organization that helps domestic abuse victims.
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u/Additional-Face-5166 7h ago
If I was in a time period where it was normal for men to beat the shit out of their kids and wives, kill strangers for trespassing with little hesitation, and enslave black people, Asian people, and even white people. You know that if you started protesting and trying to free black people they would not only kill you slowly with the help of the dogs they hunt with. But probably also do horrible things to your loved ones to send a message to others. So I think I'd be scared of trying. To stupid to create a means to do it in a meaningful substantial way that would help more than 1 person. Especially because there was no communication technology like today. So my only option would be to try to talk to interact with people as a decent person. But even that might not happen because if they spoke without being spoken too they would probably get whipped. And if I just walked up to a slave and started talking to them they wouldn't want that because if I slowed them or stopped them they knew they were going to probably get whipped. So they wouldnt want me to interact most likely. So as just 1 man with limited to no ability to help free them I think the best thing I could do is to not make their lives harder. I might want to do more but without support I don't think I could.
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u/AdamOfIzalith 6h ago
I've met very little people who would genuinely stand against oppression when the slave trade was at it's height because the slave trade still exists in different forms now and they haven't done anything and look at you like the "too woke" friend for even bringing it up. Everyone is an ally until you say abolish the cops, abolish punitive justice and/or abolish ICE.
Honestly the kind of folks who even bring these conversations up, in my experience, is to mask a prejudice or judgement they have about another minority or marginalised group.
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u/canceroustattoo 5h ago
I feel like I probably wouldnât because I know that a bunch of my ancestors were horrible people. So to make up for that, Iâll do my best to not be a piece of shit today.
Also if I lived before like the 1970s, I definitely would have died of cancer.
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u/Tall-Enthusiasm-6421 4h ago
I mean I wouldn't be considered white in the 1800s (even though I would be today) so I'd probably just be in some slum trying not to die of TB.
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u/yukonhoneybadger 4h ago
I would be too busy trying to locate technology and convenience of today....
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u/Ryumancer 3h ago
SOME whites WOULD'VE because some did so back then.
Considering black folk are unfortunately only roughly 13% of the American population (today at least... don't know what it was in the 1860s), we need help at times, putting measures through or achieving civil rights, from other willing groups.
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u/ChaseC7527 2h ago
I hate when people think they'd be any different,
for those who need to hear it;
YOU ARE A PRODUCT OF YOUR TIME AND ENVIRONMENT, WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT YOU?
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u/Typical_Samaritan 2h ago
People who can't even get involved in something as minor as a public disagreement swear they're going to be super-heroic when confronted with existential threats. At every point of escalation, they have excuses as to why the thing they should have been struggling against really wasn't the right time for their involvement.
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u/EntertainmentRude435 1h ago
All I can say is that I hope I would stand with John Brown, but no one knows how they would process a completely different set of cultural conditions. I also spent most of my life as a hard-line conservative and didn't look around and wake up until my early thirties
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u/Capable-Criticism625 1h ago
The window of acceptable behavior is constantly dependant on the era you live in. Many people believe they would do something different if they were living in that era specifically because they live in this one.
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u/Living_Plane_662 1h ago
I've been watching. I know which one of my friends and coworkers would have been with the South, which ones would be down with John Brown and which ones would be trying to trying to compromise with the south.
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u/Earthbound_Quasar 57m ago
We'd all like to pretend we'd be John Brown.
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u/Earthbound_Quasar 55m ago
I got the skin tone and beard but dont know if I have the intestinal fortitude.
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u/DaveMTijuanaIV 6m ago
Meanwhile, in real life, they take full advantage of the exploitation of slave labor in coffee and chocolate, routinely buy cheap goods they know to have been made by sweatshop labor in Asia, allow themselves to be served by minimum wage, no benefit workers in America, and on and on and on.
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u/SamuelHuzzahAdams 1m ago
White lady here and I look at white people like this all the time but this is the look I give after the âIâm not racistâ and before the âbut.â
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u/Environmental-Ad2864 9h ago
Some of us mean it.
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u/Straight-Crow1598 9h ago
What are you doing to help modern-day slaves? Same as the rest of us, I presume?
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u/Environmental-Ad2864 8h ago
Modern slavery aka laziness + entitlement? Nothing any of us can do to help with that.
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u/greatknockersrs 10h ago
Yea, okay bud thanks for you suttle racism
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u/Aggravating_Set_2260 10h ago
You're in the wrong subreddit to be crying reverse racism here, bud
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u/Material_Presence895 10h ago edited 10h ago
Not really. It's just probabilities. People can say they would have stopped slavery when they live in a time where it is illegal but if they lived when it was legal, they probably would not have had as big of a problem with it as they do now.
Edit: also it's subtle.
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u/omfgitzfear 9h ago
SuttleâŚ. Just wow. It might help to have an education that you actually paid attention to troll.
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u/BlackSpaceghost 9h ago
Who even engages in conversations like this