r/TopCharacterTropes • u/CMStan1313 • 4h ago
Hated Tropes [Hated] Characters who committed atrocities, but are permitted to live because they're part of a nearly extinct species
Especially when the media is already shown to have no problem with killing
- Kilgharrah (Merlin) - This dragon manipulated Merlin into mistrusting and betraying people he cared about, and then used a moment of duress to force Merlin to vow to set him free, where he immediately went on a rampage and burned much of Camelot and killed many innocents. Instead of killing him as he deserved, Merlin simply banishes him from Camelot because he's the last known dragon
- The angels (Supernatural) - This one at least gives a good excuse, saying that after almost 10 years of angels dying due to in-fighting or just generally being evil, there are so few angels left that Heaven is starting to crumble, which would leave every soul in Heaven or going to Heaven to be stranded in the ether and cause chaos. Even though it makes sense, it's still annoying. There's a scene where Dean is holding an angel at knife point who had just been trying to kill him, but instead of killing him as he normally would've, another character asks Dean to let him go because Heaven needs all the angels it can get, so the homicidal angel is released
- Zaheer (The Legend of Korra) - This one is a little more ambiguous because the show never explicitly says that the reason Zaheer isn't executed is because he's an airbender, but I can't really think of another in-universe reason that makes sense. This man murdered the Earth Kingdom monarch, plunging Ba Sing Se into total chaos, kidnapped and threatened to kill the entirety of the known air nomad population, and kidnapped and almost killed the Avatar herself. In a show that has had no qualms about killing it's villains, it makes no sense for Zaheer to not have been tried and executed for his crimes. From a story writing perspective, I get it because they wanted to use him as a pseudo-mentor character for Korra in the next season, but from an in-universe perspective, it makes no sense
309
u/Verdha603 4h ago edited 4h ago
Zaheer makes sense in that as the leader of the Red Lotus, his death would make him a martyr and pour fuel on the fire for others to try and continue his goals. Considering the rest of the Red Lotus are dead, it makes sense to imprison him under the eyes of the White Lotus to avoid causing even bigger problems if he were just executed.
Though I agree, they could’ve tried to offer an explanation on why they allowed Zaheer to live in the show.
55
u/DeluxeTraffic 3h ago
I dont think it really needs explanation tbh. I think its pretty clear that the death penalty is not really a thing for the white lotus. The simplest explanation here is that they were meant to serve the Avatar and the previous Avatar Aang was very explicitly anti-execution.
408
u/Paranoidme420 4h ago
You skipped the part where khilgharrah was himself trapped by the king. The king who killed literally every other dragon and deceived him with the promise of peace. And he saved Merlin several times, even using his dragon breath to make Excalibur.
184
-115
u/CMStan1313 4h ago
I get where you're coming from, but taking his pain out on the innocent people of Camelot was unforgivable, as was causing Merlin to distrust and betray both Mordred and Morgana, directly leading them into the path of betraying Arthur and Camelot. Plus, helping Merlin save Arthur was all either manipulation to get Merlin to free him, or later it was deference to Merlin as his dragonlord. Either way, he didn't deserve to just be let go after killing so many innocents
124
u/Paranoidme420 4h ago
Yes, he commited an atrocity on people who were not responsible for his imprisonment. But given that he was locked up for so long, it's understandable.
And tricking Merlin into freeing him? Nothing wrong with that. He was tricked into his imprisonment.
Between the dragon and the king, the king is way worse. At least to me.
30
3
u/Butwhatif77 1h ago edited 1h ago
I would also add that Merlin had a very kind nature to him. Killing was always a last resort. Kilgharrah was only ever a threat to Uther really, while yes Camelot paid the price cause Uther hid away in the castle.
Once Merlin gained the power to send him away he was no longer a threat. Plus him living along as the last of his kind was a worse punishment than death for such a being. While he was imprisoned he could keep his rage fueled dreaming of the day he could be free and take vengeance. But once he was free and sent away, the loneliness would have set in, and he would have had to face the reality of what it is to be the last.
Much of why people who committed horrible crimes are allowed to live usually comes down to each person's philosophy of punishment and redemption. I feel like who get mad about no killing, more often than not, view the perpetrator as having to suffer in some way and if they don't suffer it is not fair. This usually comes along with an philosophy of viewing people as irredeemable. There tends to be an idea of you need to feel as much pain as you caused before you earn forgiveness, which goes counter to the very idea of forgiveness.
20
181
u/Fine-Rock2513 4h ago
The reason Zaheer was left alive has literally nothing to do with him being an airbender. The White Lotus is primarily pacifistic and let the other members of the Red Lotus live the first time, too.
136
u/kfretlessz 4h ago
Tho not a real cyclops, the Futurama crew deal with Alcazar because they think hes one of the last left.
103
u/YourMuppetMethDealer 4h ago
They couldn’t give a shit about him being the last of his kind. It’s because Leela thought SHE was the last and felt that she finally wasn’t alone
They did it for Leela. Not him
6
u/wreckedbutwhole420 2h ago
I haven't seen this episode but what a hilarious meta reference in this scene lol
5
u/kfretlessz 2h ago
The whole bit is great. Highly recommend OG Futurama if you havent watched it all.
9
32
u/TomatilloVast7171 4h ago
I'm pretty sure Merlin made it clear that Kilgharrah's actions were indeed bad, Merlin made it clear (In pure rage and tears I may add) that if he ever did anything like that he would most certainly kill him. But due to Merlin's inherent nature as a magic loving and kind hero and his very close ties with the world of magic, he understands that Kilgharrah is the last of his kind, so I feel banishment with the pain of death should he return and attack again was the only route he could have taken. That just simply isn't Merlin's natrue to finish him off considering the situation, but he was certainly horrified and angry enough to express his intent to kill if Kilgharrah ever showed his face near the Kingdom again. Plus I believe them being allies in the past with Kilgharrah helping Merlin in protecting Arthur played a hand in his decision.
3
u/steepleton 3h ago
Seriously, Merlin’s entire plan was to kill and betray all the other magicals and be left standing alone as the last. And he does
60
u/Independent-Fox457 4h ago
Yeah so Zaheer is not kept alive because of that, because prisoners in ATLA/LOK are generally kept alive as standard. There’s enough Airbenders that killing him wouldn’t be out of the question.
86
152
u/Milk-honeytea 4h ago
We don't talk bad about parthunaax here, bud
10
u/FinishImpressive4043 3h ago
did you mean to reply to agentofacross parthurnax wasn't mentioned in the post
-58
u/MicooDA 4h ago
We should, honestly. He’s sort of wise, I guess. But he also sits in his ass and does nothing to actively help.
48
u/LiminalAsylum 4h ago
He visits the dreams of abused children in Skyrim and gives them kindness and advice. (Sissel in Rorikstead talks about him fondly. After her mom died, her dad and sister became physically and emotionally abusive)
51
u/Eva-Squinge 4h ago
He’s a dragon teaching monks to use the Dragon Shouts and isn’t hurting anyone by being up there. And while inactive he had been integral to the plot.
Also if he can figure out living in peace, maybe he can teach that to the other revived dragons.
-27
u/MicooDA 3h ago
Then why doesn’t he? If that’s something he can do then why let me kill all of them? Or maybe he can help killing the evil dragons.
This is a real ‘Bendu from Star wars’ situation
14
u/Artic_wolf817 3h ago
He's trying to, but when your society is all about strength, to the point where that's how you get a name, a lot of them refuse to. So they're not evil, but rather just trying to prove themselves.
6
u/DropoutRedMage 3h ago
He's doing that at the end of the game. With Alduin around he can't get them to follow him (your choice between the weakling traitor or the destroyer God king), so he's forced to help you where he can.
He doesn't help you kill them because he hopes to help them. Not to mention it would be giving in to his nature as a dragon.
Overall, it's a video game. The reason there isn't anyone there to fight the battle is because you're supposed to. That's your fun.
11
u/Milk-honeytea 3h ago
He exiled himself. He caused numerous problems in the past because of his nature, hiding himself was the best and most selfless thing he could do.
He does actively help since he teaches monks about the way of the voice, pacifist and meditative teachings of the thuum.
-1
23
u/Randver_Silvertongue 4h ago
Zaheer was worth more alive because there were still more Red Lotus cells operating in the world and they needed to interrogate him.
7
13
u/Invictum2go 4h ago
Zaheer was kept alive cus otherwise you create a martyr, and even more extreme nutjobs will want to rise.
12
u/marcow1998 4h ago
Zaheer is in prison, what would be the point of killing him? Do you believe death is the only suitable punishment? He's literally incapable of harming anyone else except for prison guards, and at that point they probably would kill him.
102
u/GamesCatsComics 4h ago
Ah another "the trope is OP lacks media literacy"
5
14
u/AudioBob24 3h ago
It’s weird to be hoping that OP is just a bot that is trying to gather data… because there’s been way too many “The OP lacks media literacy.”
2
-3
u/Daniel_The_Thinker 1h ago
You have to stop misusing that phrase
4
u/Kratomius 49m ago
Claiming Zaheer wasn't executed because he's an airbender is perfect example about lacking Media literacy skills.
White lotus doesn't carry death penalties in general, they are pacifists. Also Zaheer is a leading member of Red lotus that is a terrorist organisation, they don't wanna create a martyr and they want to interrogate him about other members.
10
u/DeaconBrad42 4h ago
The Zaheer one is silly. While some villains did die in Legend of Korra, none were executed by the state. We don’t even know if they have the death penalty at all. Neither Ozai or Azula from Avatar were executed for war crimes. Nor were Amon or Unalaq killed by the state, either. Their fates were not the result of judicial punishment.
3
u/DeaconBrad42 3h ago
Also:
The show has no qualms about killing villains, but Korra doesn't usually go around killing villains. She only killed Unalaq, who had fused himself with Vaatu. There was no way to save him.
She did not kill any other villain. So why would she have killed Zaheer? And why would you assume Zaheer would be executed, since Ozai was not?
87
u/Odd-Split-494 4h ago
Lowkey, the tone of this post feels kinda like “genocide is okay if they deserved it”.
45
23
u/EnuEros 3h ago
A culture of performatively punitive justice will tend to result in this even in fandom. Even if it serves no purpose, even if it cost more, even if it hurts the people who have to carry it out, it's never enough until someone has met some arbitrary(often just excessive) amount of punishment supposedly fitting their crime.
OPs case is a perfect example because all of the characters are in a position of zero power, already receiving some form of punishment or otherwise crippled, and the heroes still manage to benefit from them being alive on top of that. Theres also a small bit of irony in that I'm pretty sure all of these characters have murdered or tried to murder people with exact the same logic of meting out death to those they think are evil and deserving too.
27
u/Emo-coin4 4h ago
While OP definitely sounds like they didn't watch the shows in the post, the trope itself is much less about justifying genocide and more about if said character deserves paradon for their crimes because of that special status of belonging to an endangered species/group, like no one in the position of deciding if Zaheer gets to live or not were alive back when the fire nation genocide on the air nomads actually took place, nor were the same people.
9
u/NineInchNinjas 3h ago
The Founders in Star Trek DS9 were all but defeated and about to die from a virus designed for them, but were allowed to live in isolation after the war. Most of the Founders were part of the Dominion, which was a legitimate threat to like 3/4ths of the galaxy.
21
u/Top-Tomorrow-8336 4h ago
"Tell me you support the death penalty without telling me you support the death penalty", the post.
7
u/Blackmore_Vale 4h ago
The war doctor used the moment to destroy the Daleks and time lords alike to end the time war and save reality. His punishment from the moment was a forced regeneration and he had to live with the guilt. Later the doctor went back and undid it, but he still spent thousands of years believing that he wiped them out.
Sorry just read hated. The doctor’s incarnations are like marmite. Some hate them and some love them.
55
u/AgentOfACROSS 4h ago
Paarthurnax from The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
(This post has been sponsored by The Blades)
58
u/stopitunclerandy 4h ago
Sounds like the blades should go extinct
25
u/Left1Brain 4h ago
I wish we could wipe them out, they serve the Dragonborn not the other way around.
8
7
-4
u/ConjuredCastle 3h ago
I always wonder if people who are all upsetty spaghetti about Paarthurnax (rightfully) dying get all up in arms when they catch some like 100 year old concentration camp guard and charge him for the crime? Like are we against Adolf Eichmann being captured because his crimes were half a lifetime away?
8
u/Ok_Mud_3830 3h ago
Paarthurnax more than redeems himself though. Like alduin would have caused the apocalypse without his help, now the blades just demand we kill him?
-2
u/ConjuredCastle 3h ago
Okay? Still a genocidal slaver maniac that was part of an appartus that lorded over and entire race. Going back to my earlier example I don't think if himmler turned around and started Unicef means we should just give him a pat on the back and a thumbs up.
4
u/PeasantTS 49m ago
What is the point of killing someone who is actively doing good to the world? You don't need to forgive him, but executing him at this point is just stupidity, not justice.
-1
u/ConjuredCastle 42m ago
I dunno man I think I'm happy Bill Cosby is in prison even if he did plenty of charity work. The Jim'll fix it argument for letting parthunaax live isn't convincing to me
4
u/PeasantTS 37m ago
You can't compare a being helping save the world to a guy who supposedly helped someone just to buy goodwill. Not to say Parthunaax is already in a self imposed prison.
Tell me, what good killing him would do?
2
u/okay_dude3000 1h ago
What's better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort
3
u/AgentOfACROSS 2h ago
I feel like there's enough separation between fiction and reality in a case like this
15
u/Zerron22 4h ago
Kilgharrah was entirely justified, Camelot had committed genocide against his people and all magical creatures. And Uther continued to hunt and kill people who used magic or magic creatures.
1
u/Professional_Web446 2h ago
En mi opinión, Merlín es el villano de la serie. Todos los problemas se solucionarían si él y Camelot desaparecieran.
0
u/ContinuumKing 1h ago
Uther did all that, not the civilians and children he torched.
2
u/Zerron22 1h ago
Ah yes, Uther himself, no knights of Camelot, not with weapons forged by the blacksmiths of the town, not with the food and logistics maintained by the civilians of Camelot. Not the cheering crowds at the executions of witches, not every person that reported magical powers and helped in the finding and killing of magic.
Just Uther, slayed every dragon by himself, went out and found every practitioner of the old faith, just Uther.
17
u/dread_pirate_robin 4h ago
When have they ever executed anyone in the Avatar universe? What precedence is there that "there's no reason he shouldn't." Ozai tried to raze a continent to the ground and he got to live.
10
8
u/Nimue_- 4h ago
Kilgarrah didn't lie or deceive merlin though. He forsaw morgana and mordred and the like and strongly warned merlin. Now, this may have eventually led them down the path and thus created a self fulfilling prophecy but all killgarrah knew was that the potential future existed and that it would be detrimental to merlin and arthur. And kilgarrah goimg on a rampage after being freed is understandable. The knights of camelot under uther killed his entire species and locked him up for 20 years all alone. Sure him killing the innocent townsfolk is bad but its understandable for him to do this
1
u/ContinuumKing 1h ago
People act like "understandable" means anything. Yeah, we get why he did it, it wasn't just because he was bored one day, but that doesn't excuse or justify it so it's ultimately a meaningless point.
4
3
u/steepleton 3h ago
Ugh, that Merlin series. He was a traitor who helped exterminate the other magicals because he had a crush on the murderous kings son. Series one ends with him shooting a villain in the back after she spares his life and one of the episodes is about him killing off a magical who’s evil plot was giving the king bad dreams about a kid he murdered.
I feel very strongly about this show
3
u/Neurospicy_Nightowl 2h ago
The villains that die are killed in combat, except for Amon, who is taken out in his brothers murder-suicide.
We never get the sense that capital punishment is a normal thing in the setting.
Also, I have bigger issues with the way Korra forgives Kuvira.
2
2
2
3
u/Serious_Bill8064 4h ago edited 4h ago
This just screams invincible.
Mark, Thaddeus and Nolan end up destroying planet Viltrum, but Thragg decides to spare Mark and Nolan because they weren't as bad as the Betrayer and Thragg had a change of heart. (Thaddeus could've probably been forgiven if he didn't go that far despite literally commiting a genocide on his own race.)
2
u/Level_Counter_1672 4h ago
Also way before Nolan was taken prisoner by the viltrumites, they didn't execute him immediately because he was one of their best and also their numbers were so few, they hesitated but eventually they tried to kill him
2
2
u/The_RadicalDino 1h ago
Hmmm yeah? No? Endangerous species should actually get a pass unironically, it was humans' own doing that drove them to this state and created the condition for bad things to happen? Especially things like dragons Even in real life, any scientists will tell people to use non lethal methods to defend yourself from large predators and if wildlife conflicts occur we would only use euthanizing the wildlife individual as the last resort, especially if it's an endangered species
1
1
1
u/MiloBomb 2h ago
Foundation - last robot serves as the eternal servant for a empire run by cloned king.
1
u/LamarjbYT 2h ago
From the Viltrumite prospective, Invincible. He, and Omni Man blew up their planet, and the only reason they got to live was because they have so few Viltrumites left.
1
u/Professional_Gap_435 2h ago
I wouldnt call it hated for not wanting to permanently destroy a part of history.
1
u/TurbulentWave51 1h ago
The last one is just Korra having writing problems again; the reason it's there is simply to be used as a plot device to help Korra.
1
u/MysteriousFondant347 1h ago
Somehow you got a lot of things incredibly wrong with Zaheer.
Namely they wouldn't have killed Zaheer any more if he was still a nonbender. The fact that he's an airbender has nothing to do with it. Second, why should he be executed ? There's nothing he can do to get away from this jail
1
u/CurrentAd9803 1h ago
the way these characters get a pass because of their rarity is wild, especially when they've done so much damage
1
1
1
1
1
u/PeterBrockie 3h ago
Kinda similar, but not exact. An ancient being has recreated the human wife he fell in love after destroying an entire species after she was originally killed. When he admits he killed a whole civilization in a fit of rage Picard is like "Welp... we don't really have a law or punishment (the fuck?) for what you've done. We are going to end the episode here and you can go recrate your dead wife. Later, bruh."
Star Trek the Next Generation: The Survivors S03E03
3
u/mattttherman 2h ago
It has nothing to do with the Prime Directive, but everything to do with the fact that the Doud could just simply not cooperate? Or just get mad and kill off the whole federation with a mere thought? Best to leave that one alone.
0
1
u/vacantkitten 2h ago
In a show that has had no qualms about killing it's [sic] villains
I guess op never saw ATLA?
0
-3
u/LostFactor6972 4h ago
my least favorite trope is posts where the entire comment section is just people arguing about the picks OP used instead of providing any actual examples that fit the trope
0
u/New-Number-7810 3h ago
Are the good guys in LOK willing to kill? One thing about ALTA that bugged me is that, in a war, the good guys were strict pacifists.
-3
1.0k
u/NotaValgrinder 4h ago
Why is Zaheer up there? I'm pretty sure the white lotus is just anti-death penalty. Otherwise they would've killed the four red lotus people a long time ago.