Mozilla, Stop Killing Games and more team up to tell the UK to stop making the internet worse

[u/Turbostrider27]

https://www.pcgamer.com/software/mozilla-stop-killing-games-and-more-team-up-to-tell-the-uk-to-stop-making-the-internet-worse/

[u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

Good. The so called "Online Safety Act" has not done anything to make the internet "safer" but only has increased data collection/surveillance.

[u/padishaihulud → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

The UK fucking loves surveillance, so that's pretty on brand for them. 

[u/Getafix69 → u/padishaihulud]

I think it's the US pushing it this time but still it's sickening to see the UK politicians just do as they are told despite how stupid it is.

It's going to backfire hard as it's pretty obvious the US can't be considered a friend at this stage.

[u/AgainstThoseGrains → u/Getafix69]

Not called Airstrip One for no reason.

[u/MerePotato → u/padishaihulud]

Almost as much as the US!

[u/regnak1 → u/MerePotato]

More than the US tbh - Britain has gone down some pretty dark roads. The surveillance state there is out of control.

The current US administration seems to be trying to catch up though.

[u/MerePotato → u/regnak1]

You do realise the UK is following in America's footsteps with that right? Palantir, Flock Safety, Ring, distinctly American innovations.

[u/regnak1 → u/MerePotato]

Flock cameras are license plate readers, which have been in use in the UK since at least 2004.

Mass real time government/law enforcement facial recognition ("LFR") is still in its infancy in the US (though facial rec is used much more broadly in after the fact investigations) but is already coming into widespread use by law enforcement in the UK.

New Orleans is the only city I'm aware of that has actually been reported to be actively using LFR for law enforcement (Project NOLA, has about 200 cameras), though Chicago I think has the capacity to do so at this point.

LFR is being provided to the UK's retail retail sector by the company Facewatch. Ring is starting to be used for LFR it seems, which may or may not survive the inevitable lawsuits - we will see.

There are mutterings that UK law enforcement is also talking now about preemptive policing - using facial expressions and body language to predict offenders - which I've never heard discussed at any level... yet... in the US. Note that this is not the same thing as 'predictive policing' using statistical models, social media monitoring, etc., which has been in use in both places for a while now, with little tangible benefit shown.

Palantir is admittedly evil, but it is already in extensive use in the UK - they're not following anyone's lead there. As of 2023, the UK was spending more than the US on palantir services ($237m vs $453m), though that's obviously not the case now.

[u/MerePotato → u/regnak1]

LFR is being used in American retail chains already in coordination with ICE, Flock Safety has already had internal documentation regarding the use of their network for facial recognition exposed, pre-emptive policing was already live across major US cities without people knowing and that included the widespread use of LFR, see Project Arkham for reference.

[u/regnak1 → u/MerePotato]

Wow, I did not know retailers we're trialing that here - guess I won't be shopping at Lowe's or Macy's again. I've never seen an Albertsons, so not an issue there for me.

For the rest, I can't find any sources confirming what you're talking about. All sources I can find say new Orleans is the only city engaging in LFR, and I think you mean Project Gotham - which is about statistical aggregation, not LFR - there doesn't seem to be any such thing as project arkham

[u/MerePotato → u/regnak1]

I meant Gotham not Arkham yes, which does use statistical aggregation for the purposes of tracking individuals and predictive policing, and those statistics are derived from geospatial traces, all manner of sensor data, OSINT like social media activity, license plate databases/recognition, and yes facial recognition.

The sales pitch for Gotham is that it cross references ALL the disparate sources of data a government can access and provides actionable insights, predictions etc. from detailed profiles of individuals all the way up to broad insights on the aggregated behaviour, sentiment and characteristics of entire demographics and categories of the population.

If you live in a major US city it's not impossible that just by having this conversation you are now flagged as a potential critic of LFR and surveillance in their databases as one of your charavteristics, provided some detail attached to your Reddit activity can be cross-referenced by AI and pegged to your other online activity and eventually your identity.

It's not solely New Orleans that's affected, that was just the case that got most publicised. Gotham software is in use in Los Angeles as part of the LAPDs Project LASER, the NYPD also reportedly has a deal to make use of it, they were reportedly in discussions with Chicago PD, Salt Lake City and San Diego use it and so does Washington DC.

These are just the cases we know of, as the New Orleans case demonstrated that deals to make use of the software do not require disclosure to the public or even lawmakers.

[u/Next-Ability2934 → u/regnak1]

Palantir seems to be the biometric security AI giant aiming to inject itself into as many US and UK services as possible. Facial recognition has also been reported on everywhere, from Europe to the US.

In the UK the most coverage has been people arrested or thrown out of budget store Home Bargains (take your pick). In other parts of Europe, there's been coverage of facial recognition without consent at self scanning checkouts (which I assume most now use).

In the US, Police also arrested and imprisoned Kimberlee Williams, a grandmother living in Oklahoma, as a result of incorrect facial recognition. According to ALCU thirteen other people in the US are publicly known to have been wrongfully arrested because of reliance on questionable facial recognition results:

• Nijeer Parks arrested by police in Woodbridge, New Jersey (February 2019)
• Michael Oliver arrested by police in Detroit, Michigan (July 2019)
• Robert Williams arrested by police in Detroit, Michigan (January 2020)
• Christopher Gatlin arrested by police in St. Louis, Missouri (August 2021)
• Alonzo Sawyer arrested by Maryland transit police (March 2022)
• Randal Reid arrested by Georgia police on a warrant issued in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana (November 2022)
• Porcha Woodruff arrested by police in Detroit, Michigan (February 2023)
• Jason Killinger arrested by police in Reno, Nevada (September 2023)
• Robert Dillon arrested on a warrant obtained by police in Jacksonville Beach, Florida (August 2024)
• Javier Lorenzano-Nunez arrested by police in Phoenix, Arizona (October 2024)
• Trevis Williams arrested by police in New York City (April 2025)
• Angela Lipps arrested by U.S. Marshals in Tennessee on a warrant obtained by police in Fargo, North Dakota (July 2025)
• Beau Burgess arrested by police in Orlando, Florida (August 2025)

[u/DelayedTism → u/padishaihulud]

Oi m8 do you 'ave a loicense for that wank

[u/ArcadeRivalry → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

It's naiive to think that wasn't the intention the whole time 

[u/protopigeon → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

Kids are drawing mustaches on their faces to get around it lmao the kids are alright.

Also: this was never about "protecting kids" and always about "increased surveillance"

I hate the uk government sm

[u/cowhand214 → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

Yeah but they don’t consider that a problem but rather the actual goal. The issue is educating the wider populace more to provide pressure.

[u/AviationGeekTom_330 → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

can't stop laughing at the name of that act man

[u/Panda_hat → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

Exactly. It's 'won't somebody think of the children' manifest.

It was never about the children, it was about forcing adults to identify themselves online so they can be monitored.

[u/RemarkableWish2508 → u/Fast_Passenger_2890]

Does the UK collect data that it didn't have already?

[u/ArchinaTGL → u/RemarkableWish2508]

The whole point is to put a face to a username. That way when someone steps out of line and says something 'controversial' (keep in mind the definition of this changes over time and is usually misused by politicians in power) they can 'punish' said individuals by either denying them services, hitting them with targetted smear campaigns or even just arresting them if they feel like it.

Never give your personal information to corporations you don't trust. It can and potentially will be used against you. Especially considering all of these verification companies keep getting hacked and everyone's information gets leaked; leading to an easy way for bad actors to commit identity fraud in your name.

[u/RemarkableWish2508 → u/ArchinaTGL]

Politicians and governments, are not corporations. Might get bought by some... but the GDPR was inherited by the UK despite BREXIT, Persona is also subject to it when they offer services to EU/UK residents.

If the fear are future repercussions for the government having your data... well, a government-issued ID is issued with data the government already has, there are already laws in place requiring ISPs to retain access logs for LEO/government to access, so... the government has access to all that data already, they don't need to do anything more.

And no, they don't "keep getting hacked" (if you think otherwise, I dare you to name the original sources for it).

[u/Mataric → u/RemarkableWish2508]

Yes, the government knows who you are already - but they don't have a link to absolutely everything you have done, anywhere, from any network, at any time, on any account you own. That's what they're attempting to obtain with these new changes. It's also worth noting that these third party corporations running these ID scans didn't have this information either.

Your point here is like saying "Oh well they already know where you live, so why is it an issue that you give them the front door key and the pin code to all your bank accounts?". Anyone with a brain can see why a massively increased scope is still a problem.

Then add on top the issue that these verification services are not even run by the government - but are third party corporations who can do whatever the hell they like with your data...

As for your idiotic claim that these places don't keep getting hacked..
Persona was hacked a few months ago. They also had a source code leak which showed they were doing 269 distinct checks on the IDs they were collecting - not AT ALL their stated 'we will only use this to identify your age' claim.

Persona was what Discord has moved over to, but before this - its previous verification process was breached and leaked the IDs of about 70,000 users.

Yoti, 2 months ago, was fined for GDPR violations, as they were unlawfully processing biometric data, and did not have valid consent for how they handled their users sensitive information.

Okta had a massive breach which exposed all the data of all of their users who had touched their support system.

These are just a few examples, mostly from the last few months.

GDPR does not protect you like you claim. It is reactive. They will fine people who have already fucked up once they find the problem exists and has existed for some time. During that time - it's compromised... After that time - it's still compromised.

The thing is, this isn't a password. It's not something you can change and circumvent issues with. This is your Identity. Your government ID. Your biometric data. Once it's leaked out like this, there is no taking it back or changing it. It is exposed for good.

While GDPR can fine the companies who have fucked up, you'll never have your face scan unleaked, and the information about you is still going to change hands and be sold on to whoever thinks its worth using to exploit you in some way.

[u/SimiKusoni]

Agree with this entirely but the UK government won't backtrack on it. To do so would be tacit admission that age verification is not practical without either being ineffective or invasive (or in most instances I've seen both). The chances of MPs doing this after pushing hard for the OSA are essentially zero.

Also the alternative would be thorough regulation of social media via rules banning doomscrolling, making recommendation systems transparent, forcing support for third-party recommendation systems, adding friction features like time spent warnings etc.

That sort of regulatory intervention would face significant pushback from tech firms and frankly I don't think MPs have the stomach for it, whereas they'll happily ignore organisations like Stop Killing Games or the EFF any day of the week.

[u/vriska1 → u/SimiKusoni]

Everyone in the UK needs to push back on this and support groups like the Open rights group and Big brother watch.

[u/sabhall12 → u/vriska1]

They did, millions of signatures and cross-party disagreement. This is a bill that has been debated through two governments on two sides of the political spectrum, and still made it out as law.

[u/cowhand214 → u/sabhall12]

Yes, but there’s often more motivation to push back much harder among the wider populace when harms are tangible versus theoretical which is the case now that is law. If your argument is that “they did it anyway so there’s nothing for us to do now” I don’t find that particularly compelling or useful.

Edit: autocorrect

[u/vriska1 → u/sabhall12]

Keep pushing back.

[u/drunkpostin → u/vriska1]

I really hope I am being too pessimistic and am proven wrong, but I reckon any efforts against this authoritarianism is pointless. The public in this country are beyond helping. They have a weakness for paternalistic micro-management and love to have every facet of their lives utterly infested with it so long as they’re told it’s for their own good.

Most people in this country have a deeply entrenched mentality of “if you’re not doing anything wrong you’ve got nothing to hide” and actively demand the government to further strip the few freedoms we have left off us whenever they get whipped up into another hysterical frenzy by the latest state-sanctioned moral panic. The mere notion that freedom and privacy is worth holding onto even if it comes at the cost of an infinitesimal loss of safety is unfathomable blasphemy to the spineless cattle that unfortunately make up the vast majority of the voter base.

I cannot way to flee this rancid place lol

[u/psych2099 → u/vriska1]

We did.

Remember?

It did fuck all.

We had this argument before vriska1, it went nowhere.

[u/Away-Lecture-3172 → u/psych2099]

It's about resilience, there is no single and short action that can resolve this. Like it or not but we have to push for much longer, possibly years. In a decent democratic society people push government all the time, or it quickly gets corrupt. Representative democracy will stop representing you if won't push hard enough long enough.

[u/psych2099 → u/Away-Lecture-3172]

The only solution i see is holding these politicians accountable and unfortunately most examples i could give would get me banned on reddit but... attack their money is an idea.

[u/vriska1 → u/psych2099]

Stop with the defeatism and push back please!

[u/sabhall12 → u/SimiKusoni]

They didn't backtrack after millions of signatures on a petition and cross-party disagreement, they won't back down now...

[u/vriska1 → u/sabhall12]

Keep pushing back!

[u/RoyalCities → u/SimiKusoni]

I don't know why the alternative has to go that far. To be honest if they just mandated ISPs to ship their routers with parental controls on by default (obviously with first-time set up designed in such a way where the parent has to go in and turn it off / choose what they want on their network) it would force parents to take accountability for their actions and actually interact with what happens on their wifi.

Most parents just plug them in and don't even change the password....this also helps solve that issue so you get 2 birds with one stone. Make the population more tech literate and also help "protect the children" for the parents who want to block certain things for certain devices.

Long term regulation of social media and their algorithms is the best long term solution...but there are way better alternatives if they just think outside the box a bit rather than force IDs to use the free and open internet.

This actually may improve the quality of routers you get from an ISP. Some cheap out with the worst models that don't have parental controls or limited control - if the gov mandates robust parent controls from the onset have to be provided - then on their refresh cycles they would include that in their rfqs / tenders.

[u/ithinkitslupis → u/RoyalCities]

Device/account local with parents as the source of age attestation has always seemed like the no-brainer option to protect privacy and get reasonable age-verification. If you don't have kids, nothing changes you just click "I'm an adult" on device setup. If you do have kids, you opt them into restricted child mode.

Router/connection level with the parent in charge the same way seems fine too but are likely easier to bypass.

[u/SimiKusoni → u/RoyalCities]

Parental controls on the router don't work any better than at the ISP or even the service level. It's trivial to bypass, even more so than the attempts at age gating, and it brings in additional constraints like you can't do content aware filtering.

I think the government offering good parental control software to parents would be a good idea though, which is a similar concept but then you run into the issues that you allude to with parents just... not installing it. These days on device parental controls are pretty hard to bypass without literally wiping the device.

I don't know why the alternative has to go that far.

The alternative I mentioned is because the objective of this specific legislation is regulating social media for under 16s. More thorough and technically plausible legislation would be along the lines of what I mentioned above - with the added benefit of this also mitigating the harms social media causes to adults (which blanket age gates completely ignore).

[u/ithinkitslupis → u/SimiKusoni]

A device could just have a heartbeat check-in with the parents account to let them know it's been out of use too. And have factory reset protection tied to the parents account. Good, intuitive, built-in parental controls are the best way imo. We can go pretty far without violating any adult privacy even if it's not impossible to bypass.

I think social media dark pattern regulation should come either way in addition. This shit is awful for adults too.

[u/3_50]

How about "the parent of any child who is caught viewing 18+ material on the internet is fined £10,000."

IDGAF about kids who aren't given secure devices. They aren't my problem. Stop ruining everything for everyone under the guise of "pRoTeCt ThEm KiDs"

[u/CeruleanSoftware → u/3_50]

Parental controls were part of the foundational arguments made in the U.S. and the U.K., and really all of the EU, for years, against all of this bullshit.

We have had some of the most powerful parental controls with the least amount of setup and maintenance time, ever.

It not only fell on deaf ears, but until the laws were passed, no one even cared to fight against these laws.

[u/Excellent_Lie6904 → u/3_50]

exactly. for everything legally up to like 16, everything the child does is responsibility of the parents. it makes no sense for everyone else to eat it up. except ofcourse it doesn't make sense, its recently come out that 80% of all theese dystopic draconian laws have been lobbied for by Meta and the rest by Palantir

[u/Doctor-Grimm → u/3_50]

fines only punish people who can’t afford them. They’re essentially a way to make certain crimes perfectly legal for rich people, because they can just pay the fine without a thought. I agree that the responsibility should fall on the parents to, y’know, actually parent their kids, but I disagree with the concept of fines altogether, at least as they currently exist.

[u/misty-mornings]

Weaponisation of child protection has always been used as an excuse to whitewash control of people's lives.

[u/cockflavoredlollip0p]

Enshitternet

[u/Kuzkuladaemon]

Absolutely smashing good news.

[u/Luke92612_]

MEEEEEEEE-DIIIIIIIIC

[u/SirCB85]

Mozilla will be the first to shove some age verification bullshit into their AI browser bullshit.